In most cases those sins were nothing more than they wanted to leave his church for another church. Part of the problem is that anxiety which found its start in a serious situation, like my daughters brain tumor, leads to the body getting used to being anxious. Or we edit the comment by replacing the word codependent with some other word, and then publish the comment. I feel for his family and his victims but there wont be any hugs coming from my direction. (I actually read something recently that was talking about dry January or something to reset your tolerance and although Im sure that wouldnt be promoted by some, it seems like not a bad idea as far as making sure you dont actually have a problem.) If so, login to add it. I hope everyone has a very nice day. Instead he said the charges against his son were fraudulent which meant he was basically accusing everyone of being liars. Read More Contact Vesta Sproul's Phone Number and Email Last Update 11/9/2022 8:43 PM Email v***@ligonier.org Engage via Email Contact Number (***) ***-**** Engage via Phone Mobile Number (***) ***-**** Engage via Mobile So here it is. I dont think Barbara used the word excommunicate, although I do see how one could extrapolate the idea from kicked out. ITs all the things! which doesnt answer your question at all, and indeed I dont suppose improves on what you could have said yourself! Will his children ever step foot in a church again after seeing their father get publicly humiliated? I didnt even over-eat. I dont draw a hard line in the sand, which I think can go to the other direction of legalism. As a Christian I have to look at it like their eternal soul is the MOST important thing of all, much more important than any earthly hardships could be. The road to Mendota was very long and wound sharply through thick woods. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. However, I also get nauseated if I drink more than 8 ounces of wine. Being Married to a Pedophile: A Wife Speaks Out and Offers Hope to Other Wives ofPedophiles, Bodily Autonomy, Reproductive Rights, and the Christian Patriarchy Motion The Revealer - Olusolacoker.com, Bodily Autonomy, Reproductive Rights, and the Christian Patriarchy Movement The Revealer, Claire Roise: Oppressed and Defenseless Women within the Church, Flying Free: Help for Survivors of Emotional Abuse, Lori Anne Thompson on Clergy Sexual Misconduct. Perhaps it would be wise for RC2 to be under the oversight of a completely different church where he could be viewed as just another church member rather than RC1s son and the failed pastor. My friend's injuries were so severe that she was in the hospital at UNC for months and months. Hed lost his wife and daughter only works if we ignore chronologies. You yourself are stuck in a rut and go over the same things over and over again. Pittsburgh. With all of that information available, and with all that superstructure that is supposed to protect people (and it would have had the people listened), he still gets hired. Changed lives. What he did was wrong. I dont think he should. throw him out of the house. The idea is to protect the congregation and also try to restore the clergy member to wholeness. Things that make perfect sense to you do not compute for the alcoholic, and vice versa. * " S A> .,. I hope he will have the strength to remain clean. When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help. Hope makes not ashamed. However it might have happened, we did not see it until we were out. Sr. cant stop Jr. from spending his money on alcohol. 1. These men have made fortunes off the backs of faithful, trusting people. Someone earlier said RC Sproul Jr a psychopath. I know several individuals who consume large amounts of alcohol on a regular basis and seem to have normal lives and hold down great jobs or are self employed. Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. Family and friends are welcome to leave their condolences on this memorial page and share them with the family. But now I understand why youve used it. He waited for my mother to leave, was very stable, then just let go. Yes it is. Many of us then turned to the church for compassion, thinking it was a safe place for full disclosure, only to be abused there too. I have a common interest with one individual vintage automobiles. Who is even real and genuine in the body of Christ? For instance, Ive no control over my basal insulin requirement; if I take too much Ill be hypoglycaemic (albeit mildly) in the morning, and if I take too little, my glucose levels will be high (albeit much less than they were when I was diagnosed!). . His addiction did not force him to drive, and his addiction did not force him choose alcohol rather than treatment, assuming he was actually addicted. I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. Or would you see the situation differently? The job description was medical officer, non-clinical for the VA in which I reviewed medical records and tried to explain medical things to people who had no medical training, including but not limited to the lawyers on the BVA (Board of Veterans Appeals). Pennsylvania. The church should do their level-best to get help for his wife and children. Under what circumstances did you become aware of alcohol abuse in these people-that might be a tip off. I have an occasional drink, but honestly can barely muster up the desire for that, given what Ive seen. I didnt have serious burns, jist brown patches, PTL! Is it only Christ? We have occasionally declined to publish a comment which uses the word codependent. Your ex-church family sounds like a bunch of cheerless people. And you spent time ignoring the simple points that I made, that were crystal clear. I definitely agree with #1 and #2. After struggling with this for years, it was like a light bulb was turned on. So I was only saying what the Bible says. No-one was there for me either Daisy. My mother couldnt believe I was home so early, lol. I would just like to add that many Al-Anon meetings are safe and warm places. Velour wrote: To be Faire To Claire, I rather think she was denying, not creating, the correlation, but your point is otherwise important. People do terrible things. God have mercy. Have to agree. She may not have much say over what he does, especially anything involving his children. Ive seen examples of that, too. Im wondering if a 2018 resolution will be about depravity or the elect???? He has been through enough pain without your unfounded accusations and threats even that if his son hurts someone it will be on his head . While I appreciate your heartfelt comment, I am compelled to share a tragic and devastating childhood experience with you. Just wanted to say, this echoes the thoughts that have been running through my mind after reading the article. Are they defensive about their drinking habits, ever ready with an excuse even when one is not needed, sensitive to perceived criticism more than most? I get that church is not just a building, its people. his life is focused on his next drink) then God tells us to put that person out of the church to hand him over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. Here is one I would suggest: "Alcohol will turn you into the same a**hole your father was.George Carlin,When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops? (And its my understanding that that is the exact attitude of RC Jr. and his followers towards alcoholics in their midst, including a couple of young men who came to learn from him at the Highlands Study Center. So someone asked how can sitting in the pews help a recovering alcoholic. The idea that hurting people hurt people is correct but it is not comprehensive. Would it be okay with you to then obey what Jesus and Paul say in the Word of God? Her main mistake, perhaps, was not adding more context to indicate that the kicking out was not due *only* to the alcoholism. He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. So maybe it calls for a TWW update? Just search his name and spiritual abuse, etc. The Bible says that Christ Jesus went about healing all who were oppressed of the devil. 3. Im comfortable with my apostasy, you make being an unbeliever sound bad. Finally? Hmm. Im not sure about that. SEE? Please stop advocating for his children? He was hospitalized, detoxed, and put into psychiatric care with good follow-up and today, he is not drinking and no longer has the severe symptoms. According to his own theology, it does not. To the best of my knowledge she does not have training in the subject of alcoholism. I am not giving him a pass on his abusive behavior. They do recommend tough love including setting boundaries as you also said you support. May we all be "wounded healers" who do no harm. Im sorry to hear that, but I still do not share his/her, or your, interpretation of that. and me: That is what I was responding to. They are quite different. I would say the same thing if the person was a diabetic and required insulin. (Is this still considered true? So no, there is no authoritative structure. It makes some of them feel uncomfortable for some reason. I am not surprised that an active alcoholic is pushing drinks on everyone around him, as it makes him seem normal and justifies his drinking. Our President Donald Trump doesnt drink at all. Having debunked this mythical correlation could everyone just stop speaking as though there is one? Yes, it is helpless to watch people on a path of self-destruction. I believe that the church, as church, needs to stay out of it. I do know that most Christian people do believe that Christ died for them out of love for them, not to satisfy a wrathful entity who despises them. R.C. I will say this if this was just a pew sitter he would have been gone years ago tossed on the trash heap. My FIL was a terrible abusive drunk, he eventually got sober at age 54. I get the same apples and oranges feeling someone else mentioned. No way to cure the disease, except to not drink. im very sorry you had to go through that. A very good article by a Christian woman named Heather who is also a recovering alcoholic. Why? But at the age of 15, R.C. And I use the analogy deliberately, because it has just about all of the dead-end singularities from which no light can ever escape: Thats why a Guild Navigator is indispensable when folding space. Anyway. Talk about a great way of destroying the faith of children! Remember too, that Paul also confronts the church when they do not welcome the repentant brother back. I hope his (second) wife and children get help to take care of themselves around his alcoholism and learn how to set boundaries with him. Yes it would be nice, but I just dont see it happening. I only agree with this to the extent the Church is willing to do the same for any member of their church who should need the same. False guilt attaches to many people in this area because some traditions have prescribed a rule against alcohol when no such law is present in the Bible. I definitely agree with #1 and #2. Why are you addressing that to me? Its just that the timeline suggests grief at the loss of his wife has something to do with why he started sinning that way. This is normal for their family. His daughter, Shannon, born with Lissencephaly,died in October, 2014 at the age of 15. I have been talking about how the church should react in the face of this sort of egregious behavior. I took her post as saying if a guy is doing something unethical or that the Bible says disqualifies that person from a leadership position, then the guy should step down. However, it must have been difficult to try to find yourself in the shadow of RC1 and all that entailed. Two or three witnesses principle. I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. My trying to save him from the pain of his choices only made things worse. I dont know velour personally but she appears to be as much a person of faith as anyone who posts here. But interventions and treatment does work. What if we were discussion a DUI as the culmination of years of heavy drinking on the part of your former pastor? Barbra said that R.C. It appears that the message is that if we allow someone to that has no intention of repenting to go on like business as usual, we are NOT helping the person and it sends the wrong message to others. Sproul Jr. should be enabled nor that he should be able to keep his job. You know how to contact her. I also think that his wife and children need help in living with a problem drinker and that the church should encourage them in this, as well as him getting treatment. To me, the bottom line is Does RSJ want help? Perhaps you missed my list up the thread from last night. She was in a very fragile place. Well, now look at this: pic.twitter.com/KBEkiBnVkG. Maybe she was advocating for it to be done in public (? The ceiling didnt come crashing down and God didnt scream from the rafters, Sinners, the lot of you! It is very sad that money, power and prestige can buy one out of justice. I needed that sort of help. As for Presbyterian oversight his denomination defrocked him in 2006. Celebrate Recovery does not advocate divorce. I meant no offense to Claire, nor did I intend to pick on her specifically. But is it always a churchs responsibility to tell, advise, or command a person to get some kind of medical or psychiatric treatment? Someone (I dont know who) has definitely enabled RC Jr to drink and give drink to children! (This is confusing me ). Is everybody who offends some snowflake doing so out of the own prior trauma leading them to be a hurter of people? Just last week our District Attorney got brought up on 13 felony counts. I dont think he knows what it is to love someone other than himself, and he doesnt do a good job of even that. This is so dangerous. 1, Beverly, passed away at 10:05 PM Wednesday, February 1, 2006 in the Ruby Memorial Hospital in Morgantown. (And we are all frustrated with the double standards we have seen!!) and me nasty too and to the whole understanding of the complexity of the problems. In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. The victim of somebody elses alcohol is just as much a victim (dead on the road is what I saw over the years) whether the drunk person was self medicating or whatever the reason. so terrifying. Its not yet known for certain what causes the onset of Type 1. I dont like the other idea of other people having to go about on pins and needles because of my weaknesses. This does not give any of us an excuse to walk in disobedience to the Lord as he has. With that much trauma to the face I would tend to say that you are fortunate to not have sustained crippling injuries to your neck and/or traumatic brain injury. Sproul, Jr., has done harm to many, including his own children. They will learn not to talk about problems and not to seek help for problems, because its obviously not a safe place and they could be publicly humiliated next. I do believe the Word of God is the Word of God and is far superior to anything we could ever dream up in our own minds. I will be the first to admit that I have a definite bias. RC talks about drinking, suggests that if HE has a problem HE should abstain, but leaves the impression that we should mind our own business about others drinking and abuse. Julie Anne showed a lack of knowledge about the topic of substance abuse. That is also comparing apples to oranges. When youre a non-drinker at social functions, the drinkers noticed. They do recommend tough love including setting boundaries as you also said you support. I learned fairly early in life to fear drunk driving. but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. But its a long story, and might strip away my teens anonymity, so I wont go into further detail. So far (yesterday) you upbraided me for responding to two people and told me that I couldnt respond to people that have made comments directly to me. Bang head on table. And they have people in their life who are honest with them and call them on it. I think a spouse should leave and take the children (better yet kick the addict out of the house) I have seen people who lose their family and job recover and then the family can be restored. Having had much shade thrown our way in the early 80s because our oldest son was into alcohol and drugs, we decided to start a support group called Parents Concerned This was in Silicon Valley. I dont disagree with you that a drunkard also needs medical assistance to give up his addiction, and very likely would also benefit from mental health assistance to deal with other underlying issues he may have. Society meanwhile needs to jerk peoples licenses away from them and remove them from their jobs when necessary including withdrawing staff privileges at the hospital or refusing admission to the pulpit much less being a truck driver-all of it. And again, Im very sorry for the barbs. But hed lost his wife to cancer is the same excuse his supporters used to defend him over his Ashley Madison scandal. @ Velour: And having said that, I dont think I care to re-visit this thread to read any more new comments. I wholeheartedly agree with your comment. ALL LIES. He gained a Bachelor of Arts (BA) degree from Westminster College in 1961, Bachor of Divinity (BD) from Pittsburgh Theological Seminary in 1964, and Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) from the Free University of Amsterdam in 1969. @ Velour: Just pondering here. He is now a wonderful father and husband. He was sentenced to 1 year and 183 days incarceration. But sexual problems are a common problem in alcoholics men and women alike and its covered in treatment programs and post-treatment programs. With regard to RC2, along with his alcoholism, and the alleged wife spanking which I posted about several years ago, there are numerous reports of spiritual abuse, failure to submit to authority, church discipline, etc. Two days into it, I called my doctor and begged him to take me off the blood thinners so I could take non-steroidal anti-inflammatories (Think ibuprofen). There are so many of us, Lisa. Trying to live love and help my husband. Any time Ive ever gone to a church, what normally happens is I attend a Sunday School class where a teacher raises some topic (not pertaining to alcoholism), then I go and sit in the large worship area where I listen to a rock band play. After a total of 35 years I got entirely out of clinical and went into what the licensure people call administrative which is a wastebasket term for non-clinical and did that for 15 years. And yes, the drunk chose to drive. As someone who was severely injured by a drunk driver (see bottom of the post), I dont appreciate your he who is without sin diatribe. Barbaras focus is on how the church should deal with it, how to deal with someone whos chronically misbehaving, which is a separate topic from how and when should someone receive medical attention for a problem. I repeatedly posted that to you last night. an immoral person, [sexual immorality?] Christian support group, made headlines in The Milpitas Post , etc, etc. Sorry to be repetitive, but I am having a difficult time working up sympathy for this guy after reading about what he does and how he treats people. I have been nice to H.A. To have her fall stark naked in front of you and others? Here is what he REALLY said. But if you need some level of safety, then be cautious. The prosecutor also has to agree to the terms of a plea deal and the probation report is also given to the prosecutor. Thats why I gave you push back, because a lot more is at stake than just him and how this is handled. Pride goeth before a fall, and what a fall RC Sproul Jr. is having. Barbara wont even permit the word codependency to be used on her blog. The point to this story is that alcohol, for some people, is almost invariably destructive and those that love them have a limited ability to help them. (I use red wine in cooking and I am glad to be out of an insufferable NeoCalvinist church that saw sin in everything, including spaghetti sauce.). Theres so much pain in the world. Maybe they show the same support and solidarity to the poor, the downtrodden and the oppressed. The next tweet shows a message from Pine Hills Church when I inquired if their church is charismatic and asked about the denomination. @ okrapod: No its not. I moved back in to help with my nephew and a bit with him for a few years. Whatever issues he has and whatever wrong he has done, he is still a human person in need of help, the RIGHT KIND of help. He was married to Vesta Ann. We cant assume they cant be helped, no. There are some people who can con their way into whatever position they want, even in a denomination that has a superstructure. 30 years ago, a minister in my then-denomination, one with a national/regional/local superstructure, had an affair with a counslee, and embezzled some money. Back in 1973 I received Christ as my Savior after several different people shared Christ with me, as well as my own reading of the Bible. You stated you have been a ligonier for years, so I assume that means you agree with Sproul when he stated a few years ago that Jesus was the ultimate obscenity. So, perhaps Paul is assuming that we need to put resources on the brothers and sisters that are really asking for help. Barbara wrote a pretty nasty response to me and H.U.G. I am all for using these tools but they are not a panacea. Thank you for explaining your editorial views about the word codependent. On the other hand if Sproul has bee covering up and protecting his son then maybe Sproul should be disqualified for protecting and covering. But we do know what RC Sproul teaches, and it is very damaging. I am an old-school Southern Baptist who feels Christians would do well just to leave alcohol alone (period). But yesterday I had to go back and let them look at a post-op problem that has arisen, and the delightful surgeon in the office who saw me was a man. Yes, he was suspended, but he was suspended WITH PAY. That being said I think the far more important issue is figuring out some ways of keeping the public safe from him. But Im going to respond a little further. Sproul 2, including in keeping his job. Finally? Velour wrote: The best thing for him and those in his orbit, his incarceration. First off, there are multiple Presbyterian denominations (Presbyterian denoting the form of government, not the theology, although most claim some degree of Reformed). I read that on Wade Burlesons blog. ), Thank you so much for this balanced and compassionate post, George. (King relates this in the autobiographical first half of his nonfiction book On Writing. His father died during RC's senior year of High School (around 1956-1958). Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. it is not the same as a disease which is not brought on by the choice of behavior. I dont think Okrapod specialized in treatment of alcoholics and substance abusers. Just as people say, Guns do not kill people, people kill people. So also, alcohol is not the problem, but the people who abuse it. I wonder if Paul accused them of boasting because they were more concerned with numbers and protecting their reputation by sweeping things under the rug. I think theres a mixing of apples and oranges here, and its been going on since the very start of this thread. I just dont know any. Yep, that is one tried and true strategy for the non-drinkers. RC2 has been off the rails for a long time and has been able to act outrageously under his fathers overt protection. I hadnt thought of it in just that way; I just knew it was um foolishness. Velour wrote: (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.) Mayre Ann (Yardis) Sproul, 50 Clover Drive, Pleasant Hills, passed away Saturday, July 3, 1965. Today that little churchis her home church. She did not show that she had no clue. Sproul Jr. was arrested for driving under the influence and seemed to want use this as another defense for Jr. Blessings to you both. As a matter of fact, when a denomination refuses to ordain a particular person, that person can go start his own *denomination* and set himself up as its bishop and be quite successful at so doing. Often it is tried multiple times. Any alcoholism (whether helplessly dependent, wantonly revelling in, or anywhere in between) going on in Mr Sprouls life is going on in the life of a prominent minister who claims (and, it would appear, wields) authority over other believers. However, that is how I see that particular passage: social danger to others, or more than looks and testimony. 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