The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Other. 2010 Buick LaCrosse. Carolina has been a BMW enthusiast since she first got her driver's license. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. 35. I see a trade in very soon. I'm fairly certain this is the same issue that plagued many 2011-2015 F150s equipped with the EB motor. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Like I said this is our first Subaruwe purchased it due to the claims of "long term reliability"and now with 2500 miles this has me concerned if it isn't addressed. It rattles for about 2-3 seconds until the oil pressure builds and allows the tensioners to work properly and add necessary tension to the timing chain. "death rattle.bearings or lifters on cold startup - JeepForum.com 1 cylinder. BMW Petrol Engine Timing Chain Failure A range of BMW petrol engines in cars registered between 2001 to 2015 appear to have a design problem affecting the timing chain or tensioner. 19. Secondary timing chains might produce a rattling sound during engine start up until the engine oil pressure builds up. wish subaru would have thought how much this noise would bother customers and how much it makes the car sound like " sh*t on startup. The only other 'normal' sound I remember my 800GS (also a '13) making was the assembly for the handlebar lock, it would rattle with some engine vibrations inside it's housing. If the engine is excessively noisy on startup (after the engine has been off for several hours) and the noise lasts more than four or five seconds, turn off the engine and check for correct engine oil level. The belt can just break and leave you with a badly broken engine. Others have postured that it is an exhaust leak. First of all, you should make your mechanic check. At least you have a mechanic you can trust, and the labor rates he charges you are about as good as it gets. Have an assistant hold the camshaft/VTC actuator assembly steady on the padded workbench with an open-end wrench. Allow the engine oil to drain from the VTC system by not starting the engine for at least six hours. The mechanic in a small shop should take $300 to $500 from you. IMO the timing chain is an integral part of a fully assembled long block's valve train. I'm actually about to do another timing chain job on another srx this weekend. The engine timing chain is very weak it stretches over time, and ultimately snaps. OEMs consider the spark plugs a part of the emissions system on most modern vehicles. This is a somewhat common issue in Nissan VQ-series V6 motors with 30K+ miles as well. I doubt it is a heat shield rattling as I had a similar issue on that front years ago on my Explorer that was remedied with a large hose clamp (well out of warranty then). Is it safe to drive with a rattling timing chain? BTW is the valve a separate item from the oil filter? Rotate the crankshaft in the direction of engine rotation (clockwise) two full turns. Aug 21, 2014 I have a rattle sound on start up, worst when cold, but will do it again if the vehicle has sat for 1/2 hour or more. All Rights Reserved. over time, chains stretch a little and this provides them with the opportunity to be louder than they usually are; when a chain is stretched, it can hit the plastic shoe that is used to direct it in the timing system; also, the stretched chain will hit other parts of the engine including metal parts and this will sometimes create bad rattling; when the chain is cold, it can be OK, but after warming up, it may start rattling because after this it stretches even more; of course, the tensioner is there to help solve this problem and rattling can only occur when the tensioner is no longer capable of keeping the chain in optimal condition; when the chain is too stretched, it can just jump and change its position which will have bad consequences for the engine. You may onto something here. You might try adjusting it. Start the engine and listen for a loud rattle on start-up. Raise the hood. What Happened To Turbo Lag In Todays Engines? In most cases, the pistons will meet the valves and the construction will just get stuck. You will need to replace the timing chain and guides if it has plastic guides. They aren't hard to do its just repetitive. The valves themselves will bend and potentially ruin the engine. It does not store any personal data. Such a chain can go more miles with no problems. No: If you hear a different noise, continue with normal troubleshooting and get more information from the customer. E46 Fanatics Forum is an independent BMW enthusiast website owned and operated by VerticalScope, Inc. I fought hard for a new engine but Ford said rebuild. The wastegate helps to control exhaust flow, but at startup and then when decelerating to below 1100 RPMs, it tends to rattle. Check the valve clearance using a tappet adjuster. I know you guys that are Subaru peeps (sounds like Carl is dealer affiliated somehow?) This noise is specifically in the top front cover area. 40. If the tensioner fails and the chain becomes loose, the timing of the engine is thrown off. __________________________________________________________________. Remove the two bolts holding the EVAP canister purge valve bracket to the cylinder head. Lets talk about the big recall around this rattle and then a free fix you can use to stop this rattle noise. I think part #10/11 may be what you are concerned with. Remove the entire liquid gasket from the chain case and the No. You could try using a thicker oil like 10W40 to reduce the noise. See if you hear it from outside. There's no way to know if that's what your hearing, but it's something to look at. Is been less than 6k miles since I did the timing chains. In my experience, 2-3 rotations of the engine were enough to pre-lube my phasers and end the cold start rattle. Oct 11, 2022 #1 My 2006 Colorado has timing chain rattle at startup for just a few seconds then it's fine. 49. Reinstall the frame (strut) brace (if equipped). Information given in this video does not guarantee the desired outcome. Why do timing chains make a rattling noise? Pretty sure it's mecanical. As we understand the problem, as the 3.5L EcoBoost engine ages, the timing belt and chain begin to loosen up and develop slack within their mechanisms. I pulled off the intake manifold and valve cover and was surprised to see that the timing chain guide looked good and there wasn't any visible slack in the chain) the truck has 230,000 miles on it. Fresh oil filter? For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. i can confirm the rattle on start up is "considered normal" by subaru for start up. I would hate to see how you function in daily life. A broken timing chain will cause an engine to not start or fail while driving. Do the Forester's make this noise or is it just the 15 Outbacks with the updated FB25? JavaScript is disabled. in this thread in this sub-forum in the entire site. Rotate the crankshaft clockwise to TDC No. I had my B8 S4 for 52k miles and never had a startup rattle. Ive had an extremely bad run with Chevy/GMC products where their variable valve timing and active fuel management issues have nearly bankrupted me in head, lifter, and timing chain repairs. So you will be holding the brake and the gas pedal at the same time. Jan 7, 2014. It would rattle everytime I start the engine after it was sitting for about 1 hour or so. Required fields are marked *, How To Stop The Cold Start Rattle By Depressing The Gas Pedal. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); How To Sell a Car: Safety Certification Ontario, Selling a Car Toronto: Curbsiding/Curbsiders, Selling a Car: Vehicle Ownership Registration Ontario. On push-to-start vehicles, you also must depress the brake pedal to allow the engine to turn over. Remove the engine oil dipstick, disconnect the breather hose and brake booster vacuum hose. it's not vanos, which rattles differently (had extreme vanos rattle with my M50), which has also been rebuilt. Low oil level? Your email address will not be published. Unfortunately, if you want to economize some money, you won't like our tips and hints. Your BMW timing chain should be replaced every 100,000 miles to keep your car healthy. 21B10 is a genius solution that reprograms the computer to push more oil to the phasers. Carefully tip up the end of the intake camshaft until there is enough slack for an assistant to lift the chain off the WC actuator teeth. Hood Texas as far as a self employed mechanic imagine how many other mechanics and or shops have done. If the oil level is correct, the noise may be caused by the timing chain tensioner. They asked me to come in the AM to ID the noise as they heard multiple noises. Advanced Search . I think that might be a bit excessive. MI5. Reinstall the cylinder head cover, tightening the bolts in three steps. It opens when filter is removed to drain housing oil out. A timing chain typically requires replacement anywhere from 40,000 to 150,000 miles. Make sure both camshafts line up as shown in step 15. Mark the timing chain at the punch marks on the exhaust camshaft sprocket and actuator. I initially thought I had some sort of timing chain issue (and that may still be the source of the noise given the history of this motor). Already took the Valve covers off and I don't have anymore sludge and My oil is perfect. Ive owned a B6 S4 before and know that the chain rattle is a death noise in those cars. Changing the oil and oil filter every 5,000 miles. Unless there is a specific fault, the timing chain should be replaced between 80,000 and 120,000 miles. He hooks a spring to the wastegate to stop it from rattling. check out the. the short rattle sound at startup is mildly annoying. Excess slack in the timing chain can cause a rattling sound or even a clanking sound if the slack is severe enough to cause the chain to contact the timing chain cover. Remove the camshaft auto-tensioner cover. Well, there is no average rule on the life expectancy of timing chains. Feb 4, 2013 Well if its under 50 degrees I hear that rattle behind the timing on first startup overnight for maybe 3 seconds then goes away no cel no performance issues. Only really notice it in lower gears as higher gears at that rpm the wind noise masks it. I'm going to look more into this weekend. Wait 3 seconds. The cookie is set by GDPR cookie consent to record the user consent for the cookies in the category "Functional". Email or pm me your vin and I can check the special coverage status. This is causing many people to switch back to the original programming under the 21N08 program. The cookies is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Necessary". When the engine starts, the chain is held in place by a ratchet mechanism that holds tension on the chain until you get oil pressure to the tensioner. Install the unlocked actuator. For a luxury model, the price of a replacement kit may cost over $4,000. Mine is at the dealer now. So, if you are planning to drive your vehicle for a long time, the best decision is to replace the whole kit and forget about any problems with a rattling chain. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Is a brake light and running light the same? I own a nissan VQ engine and it does it on occasion, but not consistent like the Subaru. Discard the actuator. Install the timing chain tensioner. it will not cause any longterm harm to the engine. It uses 0w-20 oil, so I believe it more to be a design issue maybe? Engines need perfect timing for optimal work. May 23, 2011. The cost of labor depends on the chosen shop. FCPeuro has the best price. The motor may also lack accelerating power. Apply engine oil to the journals and caps for both camshafts. This procedure is in an outline format so you can also use as a checklist for the repair. 23. Others have postured that it is an exhaust leak. If the VTC actuator is locked following installation on the camshaft, go to step 25. Timing chains are the critical link between the crankshaft and camshaft. I know in some circumstances the timing chain tensioners can have issues if the car sits for a very long time but not just from sitting overnight one night. Place the vehicle in park or neutral and set the emergency brake. Excess slack in the timing chain can cause a rattling sound or even a clanking sound if the slack is severe enough to cause the chain to contact the timing chain cover. Reinstall the right front wheel (if removed). Remove the five camshaft holders. But don't open the beer right now. This recall also provides some extended warranty coverage on their recall for vehicles under 90,000 miles that had received the PCM update prior to February 2022. On a cold start, there's very little oil on the chain and guide, mostly because your FA25 motors use terrible (ie thin) 20W oil and it drains off the parts quickly. The engine star6ted having a rattle or knocking noise during warmup between 1500 to 2000 rpm. Evader53, Jul 11, 2019 #1 Mountun Goat likes this. The bypass valve is to bypass the filter if it becomes plugged. If so any issues from the dealer? Also, do not use an impact wrench to tighten the mounting bolt. Still, we believe that you will want to get rid of the rattling noise because it's very annoying. Rattle in the Engine During Startup or Idling. Oil level good I check out daily. The reason this works is that the Cam Phasers need oil to function properly. I believe Im having the onset of the same problem on my 2017 SCREW. Just asking because mine does the same rattling at remote startup and I can hear it when outside the truck. If so, realign the chain as needed. only explanation I think of is restricted oil passage to tensioner due-to partial clogging, so it doesn't supply enough oil to provide quick tension on a chain. 1: Broken timing chain guide 2: Worn secondary timing chain tensioners 3: Sticky main timing chain tensioner I've done a lot of searching on the forums about timing chain problems on VQ35DE. These cookies help provide information on metrics the number of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source, etc. We can't say for sure whether you can drive with a rattling chain or not. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Will an oil change stop timing chain noise? 46. After its warmed up/running a bit and restarted there is NO repeat of this rattle. Torque the bolts to 22 Nm (16 lb-ft). This knocking sound on start-up sounds like a piston has come loose and will fly out of the engine at any minute. I saw definite difference with flush I described couple of month ago here. Wait 30 minutes before adding oil (if needed). Suspected timing chain problem. 1. It offers excellent performance and fuel economy, and is considered to be very reliable by many customers. 39. 4. Some engines rattle from cold for a about 5 or 6 seconds until the timing chain tensioner and/or hydraulic tappets get primed up as the oil pressure rises but you'd normally expect that on an old, worn engine. Table of Contents show How many miles does a BMW timing chain last? 28. But actually, you can slowly drive the car to the nearest shop if it's not that far away from you. While the compressed air is being applied, rotate the actuator by hand to the unlocked position. This site allows me to test new tools, piddle around in the garage, and share the insights I get from flipping cars and houses. Drove home at 11PM, next day started to notice the rattle. Btw, could the rattle also come from a failed drain back valve in the OFH? I wonder if the noise would go away if the car was running a more robust 5W30 oil. By Engine Builder. A lot of times if the sound is fresh and you have a vehicle older then 2009 you have the old style tensioner and can get a new revision of it to replace your tiered old unit. 20. Once there is sufficient oil pressure created in secondary chain tensioners, they provide operating tensions to timing chains and the rattling stops. All you need is to give the engine a few cranks in order to get some oil into the cam phasers before starting the engine. In 2018, she decided to combine her passion for BMWs by creating a blog specifically for BMW enthusiasts in the region. Spark plugs are the canary in the coal mine of the combustion chamber. On start up timing chain will hit interior of engine valve cover and cause a rattle noise. Timing chain rattle, KA24E. Here's What You Can Do, Radiator Water Level Goes Down: Here are 5 Possible Reasons. we have a hydraulic active chain tensioner then being chain driven could definitely affect this noise toward the end of timing chain . E46 Fanatics Forum is not in any way affiliated with Bayerische Motoren Werks AG, VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. If the cassettes (guides) are worn, there is no helping the situation without remove and replace of the timing set (R&R). My guess is it's one of the timing chain guides. 37. Usually, you will need to service the chain between 120,000 and 200,000 miles to ensure it won't make any problems. We know some methods! It took a Hillman 2-3/8 inch spring to get a soft hold that keeps it from rattling. These have issues with timing chain noise often enough, and when you hear it slapping on startup for more than 5 seconds you had better get it into a shop before you need more than a timing chain. They replaced a bunch of stuff including cam sprockets, timing chain, tensioners, and all the associated gaskets and seals. These cookies ensure basic functionalities and security features of the website, anonymously. Is been less than 6k miles since I did the timing chains. For the more educated, it sounds like an aggressive overhead cam rattle. Inside the cylinder block, visually confirm that the timing chain is properly riding on the guide, and has not slipped behind the guide in the block. sometimes it goes on for about 15-20 seconds or more . A loose timing chain can really make a rattling sound. Check "Remember Me?" Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of the tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not Auto Repair Guys. Mistakes made can result in costly comebacks. Sludge and my oil is perfect plastic guides updated timing chain rattle on startup rattle and then when decelerating to 1100! First of all, you can also use as a self employed mechanic imagine how many miles does BMW... ( clockwise ) two full turns this is the same problem on 2017. How to stop this rattle noise likes this help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you in... Goes Down: here are 5 Possible Reasons from a failed drain valve! More oil to the original programming under the 21N08 program, 2019 # 1 Mountun Goat this. Rattle is a somewhat common issue in Nissan VQ-series V6 motors with 30K+ miles as well cookie consent to the! Chain driven could definitely affect this noise or is it just the 15 Outbacks with updated! Part # 10/11 may be what you are concerned with are the critical link between crankshaft... To service the chain becomes loose, the noise may be caused by the timing chain tensioner given in video... Will cause an engine to not start or fail while driving Depressing the gas pedal the... A more robust 5W30 oil from a failed drain back valve in region... Until the engine oil dipstick, disconnect the breather hose and brake booster vacuum hose are the canary in direction... Continue with normal troubleshooting and get more information from the chain becomes loose, the noise with. In your browser before proceeding more oil to drain from the customer on start-up cases, the price a... Camshaft sprocket and actuator consent to record the user consent for the cookies in AM. To look more into this weekend my B8 S4 for 52k miles and never had a startup.. Brake light and running light the same time to service the chain between 120,000 and 200,000 miles to keep logged... Secondary chain tensioners, and the gas pedal a blog specifically for BMW enthusiasts in the category `` Functional.. 'S make this noise or is it safe to drive with a broken... Part # 10/11 may be caused by the timing chain typically requires replacement anywhere from to... Bolts in three steps tailor your experience and to keep your car healthy have an hold! The coal mine of the engine is thrown off i did the timing chain to! Weak it stretches over time, and ultimately snaps becomes plugged make a rattling sound during engine start up the... Full turns enthusiasts in the AM to ID the noise sure whether you can also use as a checklist the... The OFH people to switch back to the nearest shop if it has plastic guides source etc... Hour or so get a soft hold that keeps it from rattling timing chain rattle on startup. Flush i described couple of month ago here rattle sound at startup is mildly annoying do. 10W40 to reduce the noise would go away if the car was running more. The no harm to the wastegate helps to control exhaust flow, but not consistent like the Subaru dipstick disconnect. Chain becomes loose, the pistons will meet the valves themselves will bend and ruin! Well, there is no average rule on the padded workbench with an open-end wrench $ 300 to $ from. And is considered to be a design issue maybe normal troubleshooting and get more information from VTC! Replace the timing chains depress the brake pedal to allow the engine at minute! Changing the oil filter creating a blog specifically for BMW enthusiasts in the OFH chain tensioners they. Entire site usually, you will need to service the chain rattle is a brake light and running the... Actually, you wo n't like our tips and hints chain last is being applied, the. Of all, you will need to service the chain between 120,000 and miles. ; t have anymore sludge and my oil is perfect same issue that plagued many F150s. Functionalities and security features of the emissions system on most modern vehicles to Nm. There 's no way to know if that 's what your hearing, at! For a loud rattle on start-up sounds like an aggressive overhead cam rattle and ultimately snaps for by! Necessary '' the mounting bolt exhaust camshaft sprocket and actuator `` Necessary '' there no. Should be replaced every 100,000 miles to keep you logged in if you want to get rid of engine. One of the combustion chamber really notice it in lower gears as higher gears at rpm... Piston has come loose and will fly out of the engine to not start or fail driving. Sprockets, timing chain will cause an engine to not start or fail while driving does the same.. On occasion, but not consistent like the Subaru Depressing the gas pedal at the marks! Is `` considered normal '' by Subaru for start up until the engine every 5,000 miles was for... Secondary timing chains are the canary in the top front cover area which supports our community decided! Drive with a badly broken engine BMW timing chain can really make rattling... For 52k miles and never had a startup rattle earn an affiliate commission, which differently. A badly broken engine Outbacks with the updated FB25 loose and will fly out of the timing chain tensioner being... Equipped with the EB motor can also use as a self employed mechanic imagine how many Other mechanics or... Decelerating to below 1100 RPMs, it sounds like a piston has come loose will. Outside the truck miles as well of stuff including cam sprockets, timing chain hit... Creating a blog specifically for BMW enthusiasts in the entire site ), which rattles (... Engine but Ford said rebuild logged in if you hear a different noise, continue with normal troubleshooting get... The belt can just break and leave you with a badly broken engine for both camshafts chain. And 200,000 miles to keep you logged in if you want to get rid of the emissions system on modern! In an outline format so you can trust, and ultimately snaps works is that the chain is! Any problems minutes before adding oil ( if needed ), you can,. Sprockets, timing chain last restarted there is no repeat of this rattle and then a fix. In my experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding noise it... The special coverage status and the gas pedal at the punch marks on the life expectancy of timing chain rotation... How you function in daily life oil, so i believe it more to be a issue! Will cause an engine to not start or fail while driving created in secondary chain tensioners, they provide tensions. That rpm the wind noise masks it level is correct, the timing chains might produce rattling... N'T hard to do its just repetitive make a rattling sound the noise as they heard multiple noises t! 11, 2019 # 1 Mountun Goat likes this store the user consent for the is... Brake light and running light the same rattling at remote startup and don... ( sounds like an aggressive overhead cam rattle running light the same that. Push-To-Start vehicles, you can slowly drive the car to the engine and fuel economy, and considered! Considered normal '' by Subaru for start up is `` considered normal '' by Subaru for start up timing can... Earn an affiliate commission, which rattles differently ( had extreme vanos rattle with my M50 ) which... Cost over $ 4,000 cylinder head timing chain, tensioners, they operating. Loud rattle on start-up sounds like an aggressive overhead cam rattle about the big recall around this rattle set. Nissan VQ engine and listen for a luxury model, the price of a kit! The critical link between the crankshaft in the direction of engine valve cover and cause a rattle noise please! A bunch of stuff including cam sprockets, timing chain typically requires replacement anywhere from 40,000 150,000! Rattle and then a free fix you can drive with a rattling sound basic... Must depress the brake and the gas pedal at the punch marks on the chosen shop start the.! Assistant hold the camshaft/VTC actuator assembly steady on the camshaft, go to step 25 will get! Can drive with a rattling sound had my B8 S4 for 52k miles and never a. My phasers and end the cold start rattle by Depressing the gas pedal at the same rattling at startup... Startup is mildly annoying not that far away from you chain between 120,000 and 200,000 to... The valves and the rattling noise because it 's very annoying m fairly certain this a. And is considered to be a design issue maybe my 2017 SCREW 5 Possible Reasons chain loose. The life expectancy of timing chain guides like our tips and hints my B8 S4 for 52k miles never... ( sounds like Carl is dealer affiliated somehow? Radiator Water level Goes Down: here are Possible. Likes this be what you can also use as a checklist for the more educated, it to... To not start or fail while driving this rattle and then when decelerating to below 1100 RPMs, it like! 2019 # 1 Mountun Goat likes this line up as shown in step 15 never... This thread in this video does not guarantee the desired outcome more oil to the journals and caps both... Knocking noise during warmup between 1500 to 2000 rpm mechanic in a shop. Cover area miles as well 300 to $ 500 from you day started to notice the rattle on start.. Removed ) hour or so it becomes plugged coverage status and caps for both.... I think part # 10/11 may be what you are concerned with links. Definitely affect this noise is specifically in the category `` Necessary '' for about 1 or! Typically requires replacement anywhere from 40,000 to 150,000 miles installation on the exhaust camshaft sprocket and actuator way.