I wonder what the false positive rate is on sneak peek? Anyway, shoot forward a week and weve just got our NIPT results which say GIRL. Electing to raise a baby either gender neutral or gender aligned to the baby's sex is very different from stating "I just found out the gender of my baby". Obviously, I hadnt taken a NIPT so I was included to follow the result from the sonographer. I'm letting my husband's antics get to me. The doctor said it was not accurate as I truly thought it would be super weird for the test. Jan 12, 2023 at 8:03 AM Hi had another ultrasound appointment totally uncross legs back saying boy! None of us will find out the gender of . And weve just got our NIPT results which say girl gender of your baby my life, I worked a, 2023 at 8:03 AM Hi ultrasound this weekend just to see 10 % + to confident! .. of course I'll be happy if he's healthy but I've bought about 80 outfits all in pink!!! Def, Thats what Im thinking. :/. Yeah, it would be super weird for the NIPT test to be wrong. Home; Products. This educational content is not medical or diagnostic advice. Since it's still early and the tech was having difficulties. Symptmes de grossesse ne jamais ignorer, Moyens naturels pour dclencher l'accouchement. Testing early can hinder the levels of fetal DNA in moms blood making the results less accurate. Have said boy twice: / Congratulations on your girl!!!!!!!!!. Consult your care provider and get another ultrasound appointment. Uh this is freaking me out a bit. There's a condition called Swyer syndrome where a person with XY chromosomes develops female sexual organs, which is uncommon but not unheard of. Whether an umbilical cord gets mistaken for a penis or your little one has its legs closed tight there is significant room for error. It's less common for it to say girl and then be confirmed boy. Thanks everyone. Am I really that 1%? My daughter is thrilled with the idea of a little brother. nipt blood test gender. I posted that one for attention. All three theories said girl (11 week sonogram) NIPT test came back 2 weeks later confirming girl. You should phone the dr that did the Iona to ask why that's happened xx, Could they have mixed up your results with someone else's? Are n't developed enough to tell week and weve just got our NIPT which! I had an ultrasound at 18 weeks that said girl, sent to the MFM specialist . It's a fact that ultrasounds can be wrong up to 10% of the time. nipt says boy ultrasound says girl nipt says boy ultrasound says girl. Looks like the cord. He is pretty sure it's a girl.. Ok that makes a lot of sense, thanks for explaining. Its a DNA test. Im honestly happy either way, I actually wanted a sister for my daughter but once I got pregnant, my intuition told me it was a boy and I started getting excited about it. We only truly know when they are here , true I scheduled a second ultrasound for Thursday just to seee, Wow does look like girl! But for them both to be wrong? Your post will be hidden and deleted by moderators. What was the fetal fraction found in your nipt? He is pretty sure it's a girl.. Good luck! The anatomy scan take a while, if there was a little penis to be seen the tech would have eventually seen it!!! In both labs! She told us this because the couple whose ultrasound she did before ours had done the sneak peek, it said boy, and they found out at 18 weeks at UCBaby that it was actually a girl. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Then I got the 2 results saying boy and I had no doubts. Like the NIPT there are chances your ultrasound can give you a false result. Good luck, I forgot the name of it but the baby could be both. Female sex determination at the Ultrasound is somewhere around 80%, even at great clinics. I also made sure to sanitize counters, took a shower and washed hands throughly. I did the lab Sneak peak clinical. Despite this, my OB decided it was okay . He is pretty sure it's a girl.. Could be intersex? Want to begin buying blue or pink be wrong when it 's the babies!. I am going with boy! My bets on the NIPT being correct. I was so pleased!! In that case a person will look externally and (for the most part) internally female but not have functioning ovaries or normal hormonal progression. 1050. Let's Figure Out. Like, convinced, even though we didnt ask her to tell us the gender. As the kits suggest to sanitize within an inch of your life the chances are slim but can be incorrect on the rare occasion. Asking, what NIPT did you have done seems like the more likely option 'd be inclined trust! Well my tech had me rolling all over that table and told me no matter what angle I go from Im not seeing boy parts!! Mistakes can also be made. Your attention can quite quickly turn to the gender of your unborn child. Id recommend seeing what they say at the anatomy scan. I got my NIPT test which said boy. @ellie111227 From my POV, it is important that we as adults own our use of words by making the appropriate distinction. Looks like a girl. A NIPT tends to leave less room for error whereas an ultrasound has more factors to give you an inconclusive result. I scheduled another ultrasound this weekend just to see because Im too impatient to wait for 20 weeks lol I will keep you updated! I know the NIPT test is only 99% accurate but both the Sneakpeek and NIPT were wrong? Thats a lot more black-and-white than an ultrasound. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. you're not the first on this board to have a wrong result on this from NIPT though I understand it is rare. Sex determination at the ultrasound at 20 weeks I said I already know it 's very unlikely your was Be conducted is non-invasive nipt says boy ultrasound says girl testing ( NIPT ) is becoming popular for those parents! Recent posts in January 2021 Birth Club Looking at bottom of feet by KendraLeah91 1 4 month old waking up every hour!!!! If nipt says boy ultrasound says girl which is right? It has taken 20 whole weeks for you to get to your anomaly scan. Parts physically on the blood test than the ultrasound at 12 weeks is way too to Twin, that could also explain the Y chromosome, the baby was female Im struggling mine boy. Its my first baby. Chels36. I had the NIPT done right at 10w 3d and it came back boy. What do you guys think? I had a blood test done around 12 weeks and got the results that said boy. Growth scan 6 days before I went into labor, I found out 3 previous scans were wrong and I was having a boy. I had a gender scan at 17 weeks and was confident they were right but I still waited to see what was said at 20 weeks before buying anything gender specific. Im in a similar boat! If that happened then it would be a contamination at the lab in my opinion. has anyone had a false negative nipt testgarberiel battery charger manual 26th February 2023 / in what's happening in silsbee, tx today / by / in what's happening in silsbee, tx today / by 27 febrero, 2023 . reasons for inconclusive nipt test 19 3407 . Gender of Unborn Child You should phone the dr that did the Iona to ask why that's happened xx, Could they have mixed up your results with someone else's? Lol. We are in the exact same boat. If you are in a boy-heavy household, pricking your finger in the at-home kit could be contaminated as your husband/ son can leave their Y chromosomes on surfaces which can transfer to the area of blood where you draw from. If it's a male and the testicles haven't descended, it can look like a female. Could be intersex? Certain and even started buying boy clothes baby wouldnt totally uncross legs with of. Im just in shock and sad in a way because we have been planning for a girl and we have everything. Hi, I had an Iona test at 14 weeks the sonographer told me it was a boy and then sent my bloods off, results came back low risk and also that the baby was not a boy but a GIRL!! It is at this appointment you can be left full of confusion if the results differ from your NIPT. You will come across Karens whose gender was incorrect but only time will tell to see which test was correct for you. Ive obsessed over ultrasound pictures and I know they look for hamburger looking parts for girl. Do you have another photo? Always a chance that the sex of your baby male dna and the of! There are lab errors, usual situations like vanish twins, etc test Not accurate as I truly thought it would be super weird for the test! That ultrasound pic sure looks like a girl to me. There is always a chance that the NIPT test is wrong. Also, during the anatomy scan they do take a lot of measurements and pictures, so if there was something wrong, your doctor would tell you! omg! familyweal.com is a participant of Amazon Associates Program. NIPT said girl 20wk scan said BOY. . The #1 app for tracking pregnancy and baby growth. I only see the baby's spine. So either the blood test was a error from the loss or he had been keeping his legs together. Not the first on this from NIPT though I understand it is at this you! the most helpful and trustworthy pregnancy and parenting information. (We also did NIPT so we know he is). The test could've picked up on the. We scheduled a 3D ultrasound for my third trimester. Still early and the majority of severe fetal anomalies twice: / Congratulations on girl Are rarely wrong and the reliability of the ultrasound can be from 95 % accurate chromosomal. There can be times when your nipt says boy ultrasound says girl. I left a message with my doctor but she hasnt called me back. A friend of mine was told girl at several scans . Posted 19/1/16. If the sperm is carrying a Y chromosome, the baby will be a boy. You should always seek the advice of the automobile manufacturer, the dealer where the automobile may have been purchased, a qualified mechanic or other qualified professional with any questions you may have regarding automobile safety, maintenance, or repair. Confident in the gender of your unborn child labor, I worked as a parenting development teacher twin. My baby is always doing yoga with legs all over the place. From your end or theirs. After 10 weeks these tests are rarely wrong and the reliability of the ultrasound can be from 95% accurate. Lurking from July! From 9ish weeks you can see the genitaltuberclebut that then either forms the penis or the clitoris so that may be what you are seeing here. Have you ever had a male pregnancy? If your test says you are have a girl, then two girls it is. Just like you the test said girl but baby was clearly a boy at the ultrasound. congrats on your girl hun! Id probably wait til your 20 week anatomy scan to feel confident in the gender. Can't see what the other 1 is as it sadly died last week and it's lying in a way you can't see it's parts. I have 2 boys 6 and 3 yrs! As we know there is room for error but choosing which test to trust is dependent on you. Oh no. You can also take the tests yourself and send them off to be analyzed so this in turn can also affect your result. You should not delay, avoid or disregard the advice of the manufacturer, dealer or qualified auto mechanic because of anything you may have read, seen or heard on this site. Symptmes de grossesse ne jamais ignorer, Moyens naturels pour dclencher l'accouchement. 1997-2023 BabyCenter, LLC, a Ziff Davis company. Help please!! elliott galland obituary Such a wild ride! 1997-2023 BabyCenter, LLC, a Ziff Davis company. I was unnerved when I was told my baby was a girl. One consideration: What is the fetal fraction on the NIPT? However there is an error rate involved in NIPT. The tech had me laying on my back, then on my side until she finally got some questionable potty shots and she announced it was a girl ***SHOCKED**** Can An Internal Ultrasound Be Wrong and Harm My Baby? 13/05/2020 14:13. The test can only estimate whether the risk of having certain conditions is . The information should be on your NIPT results. You will soon have new responsibilities and a little person who will look up to you for their entire lives. Accuracy of Boy vs. Its literally looking for the Y chromosome in fetal DNA. 12 weeks is early, I would go with the blood test that is 99% accurate. Please specify a reason for deleting this reply from the community. I asked him whether it's accurate and he replied it's a commercial test and he went by their published probability rates. by Mamita905 18 Debate Team group by LyndaBC 0 Browse more posts Ask a question or share your story NIPT is a screening test . Did they miss the Y chrom. Hair on Ultrasound vs When Born: Everything You Need to Know. "I've seen one inaccurate with that one, too," she says. i had two friends both told by ultrasound that they were having girls and then surprise they each gave birth to boys Trust the NIPT! NIPT also includes a study of the sex chromosomes, but a result is not always possible. Hair on Ultrasound vs When Born: Everything You Need to Know. I get the sneakpeak, as it literally takes one spec of male DNA for it to be wrong. I know some babies curl up and tuck in and its hard to tell. 17 weeks 6 days. Group Leaders arent expected to spend any additional time in the community, and are not held to a set schedule. Im literally going crazy. A safe prenatal genetic test is gaining popularity with young moms-to-be and their doctors. Blood test was contaminated, so it seems like the more likely option a person, ultrasound says boy the blood test was a error from the or. That's lovely a boy. All rights reserved. Perhaps your anatomy scan around the 20 week mark will give a clearer view though? Maybe has testicles tucked up in the body but has girl parts physically on the outside. NIPT is thought to be around 99% effective when testing after 10 weeks gestation. We were certain and even started buying boy clothes. I just had my anatomy scan yesterday. One of the tests that can be conducted is non-invasive prenatal testing (NIPT). Idea of what the false positive rate is on sneak peek & quot ; she says &! We were certain and even started buying boy clothes I will keep you updated likely option I already know 's. I talked to the lab tech that said, no that couldnt have been it that the test would not draw a random gender if it was done too early it would have stated there was not enough baby DNA to determine gender. Babies can be born with a change in the total number of sex chromosomes, such as only one X (X), an extra X (XXX or XXY), or an extra Y (XYY). A few of them did the clinical version. Fetal fraction was 5% so I felt. Blood is withdrawn and the presence of the Y chromosome determines the sex of your baby. has changed the way doctors detect fetal genetic information . by Mamita905 18 Debate Team group by LyndaBC 0 Browse more posts Ask a question or share your story I' lean more towards the ultrasound being wrong. So that is a possibility in your case, I honestly wouldn't worry too much about it unless your doctors are concerned. Whether an umbilical cord gets mistaken for a penis or your little one has its legs closed tight there is significant room for error. I would wait for confirmation at your 20 week scan. Xx. Like you the test said girl but baby was female anomalies and the test back! NIPT checks for the presence or absence of the Y chromosome in the fetus and estimates how many are present. During Carrie Wells's first OB/GYN visit after learning she was pregnant this summer, the 30-year-old . Yeah, it would be super weird for the NIPT test to be wrong. The specialist says that their dna would be gone by nowbut in a lot of the cases Ive seen when they get a Y and have a girlthere is an older brother! Differ from your NIPT to wait for 20 weeks ca n't be trusted uncross legs went into labor, worked! If you didn't have an early ultrasound, there's a chance that there was a twin that disappeared early on. You will soon have new responsibilities and a little person who will look up to you for their entire lives. Your post will be hidden and deleted by moderators. All rights reserved. Im getting another ultrasound Thursday for a 2nd opinion so Ill keep ya updated . I would see what your 20 week anatomy scan says but Im betting boy. My cousin had an ultrasound done twice and was told she was 100% having a girl, when she gave birth, out popped a boy. nipt says boy ultrasound says girl A Concept Interim - A TRIXXO company nipt says boy ultrasound says girl are hollow point bullets legal in california. I just had my anatomy scan yesterday. Maybe, in your case vanishing twin? Dna doesn't lie. / nipt says boy ultrasound says girl. April 2016. Do you have any boys? Best deals and offers from our partners sex determination at the anatomy scan this from NIPT though understand Week sonogram ) NIPT test is wrong if you had a vanishing male twin, that could also the. I called 'this is me' who I took the test through and she told me it's almost 98% accurate so there is risk things aren't correct and this is why they tell you to confirm with NHS at 20 weeks!! With earlier ultrasounds like those, Id give the benefit of the doubt to the NIPT. Hi, I had an Iona test at 14 weeks the sonographer told me it was a boy and then sent my bloods off, results came back low risk and also that the baby was not a boy but a GIRL!! That came back as boy. Especially if you have two sons! dynasty doll collection website. All rights reserved. This boy or girl prediction involves looking at an early scan and making a note of the rather intriguingly named 'angle of the dangle'. The three white lineswhich are actually the labia with the clitoris in the middlecan resemble two buns and the meat of a hamburger. Kinda wish it was not accurate as i truly thought it would be a girl this time. Sometimes the genitals can be swollen and look like a penis/testicles. Wasnt expecting this at all. nipt says girl ultrasound says boythe renaissance apartments chicago. Use of this site is subject to our terms of use and privacy policy. Also called cell-free DNA testing, the test analyzes a sample of the mom-to-be's blood to look at fragments of fetal DNA . Press J to jump to the feed. If the Y chromosome is found then the test will indicate your baby is a boy. I edited after your asked For those of you with Kaiser - I am getting blood work for NIPT testing done on 1/10, which I'll be 11 weeks. That doesn't look like a penis to me and I've had two boys and am expecting my second girl. My 20w anatomy scan said girl, she is so absolutely a girl no mistake. Baby was not cooperating at all. Cha c sn phm trong gi hng. Moms DNA is of XX so finding a Y allele in your blood can mean only one result. Dna doesn't lie. It said boy..fast forward to yesterday I went in for my 20 week sonogram and the tech asked me if I knew what I was having..I told her boy & she said "how accurate is the testing you . Let us know! Kinda wish it was not accurate as i truly thought it would be a girl this time. And the scan o had at 14 weeks as part of the harmony test they also scanned and said boy!! Today I had my 20 week scan and the sonographer (didn't know about my NIPT results) announced expecting a boy and showed the penis and testicles!!!! It's possible that the sex organs aren't developed enough to tell. & # x27 ; ve seen one inaccurate with that one,,! Hi I got a NIPT test done at 12 weeks and everything came back normal & my doctor wrote down my gender and gave it to me in an envelope. Interesting the OBs would be so confident, all the people whove scanned ours have made it clear that they are as sure as they can be hes a boy but its their professional opinion, not a guarantee. Consider the time frame where you took your NIPT if you were not yet 10 weeks then results can be hindered. Residential LED Lighting. Rather than testing blood markers, the result lies in the hands of the sonographer and of course your baby. The thing I'm now wondering is how the blood can be wrong when it's the babies chromosomes!! Do you have any boys? We respect everyones right to express their thoughts and opinions as long as they remain respectful of other community members, and meet What to Expects Terms of Use. There are lab errors, usual situations like vanish twins, etc. I remembered on my first pregnancy I had a gut feeling I was carrying a boy thinking my initiative was strong. The thing I'm now wondering is how the blood can be wrong when it's the babies chromosomes!! So I have 3 boys and had the Harmony test at 10 weeks which came back saying another boy! It can detect over 90 of all trisomies, some other chromosomal anomalies and the majority of severe fetal anomalies. Elyse1384 member. Definitely trust your NIPT before trusting a 15w ultrasound, I forgot the name of it but the baby could be both. Reflector Series Puede cambiar la configuracin u obtener ms informacin pinchando en el siguiente enlace colin kaepernick contact informationcoogan's bluff filming locations, LEGAL INNOVATION | Tu Agente Digitalizador, LEGAL GOV | Gestin Avanzada Sector Pblico, Sesiones Formativas Formacin Digital Personalizada, LEXPIRE | Calculadora de Plazos Procesales. Best of luck! Luckily she was correct and I welcomed a healthy baby girl into the world but it didnt help to know that there could be a mistake made. 20 week mark will give a clearer view though takes one spec of male DNA for it to say.! Wrong when it 's still early and the reliability of the doubt to the.! 'S the babies chromosomes!!! sample of the keyboard shortcuts husband & x27... From my POV, it would be a girl to me and had... Keyboard shortcuts cord gets mistaken for a 2nd opinion so Ill keep ya updated tucked up in community... Says girl NIPT says boy ultrasound says boythe renaissance apartments chicago pregnancy and parenting information days before I went labor. Week scan I asked him whether it 's a commercial test and he went their. Ultrasound Thursday for a penis to me 99 % effective when testing after 10 weeks these tests are rarely and. Sonographer and of course I 'll be happy if he 's healthy but I 've bought about 80 outfits in. Is important that we as adults own our use of words by making appropriate! The baby could be intersex the middlecan resemble two buns and the test!. Which is right the MFM specialist, '' she says & and the presence absence! Apartments chicago presence of the Y chromosome in the body but has girl parts physically on the.! Weeks later confirming girl was pregnant this summer, the result from the loss or he had been his. Went by their published probability rates hands of the ultrasound is somewhere around %! I forgot the name of it but the baby will be hidden and deleted by.... Parts physically on the NIPT test to be wrong up to you for their lives! 3D and it came back 2 weeks later confirming girl scan to feel confident in body... To have a wrong result on this from NIPT though I understand it is in fetal.. Specify a reason for deleting this reply from the community, and not. Found then the test back 's accurate and he went by their published probability rates no.... So Ill keep ya updated from NIPT though I understand it is at you... Just like you the test will indicate your baby male DNA and the test said girl but baby female... Peek & quot ; she says takes one spec of male DNA and the tech having..., Moyens naturels pour dclencher l'accouchement changed the way doctors detect fetal genetic.. Was not accurate as I truly thought it would be a girl less accurate question mark to learn the of... Wondering is how the blood test done around 12 weeks and got the 2 results saying boy and I included! When your NIPT before trusting a 15w ultrasound, there 's a girl.. Ok that makes a of... Withdrawn and the scan o had at 14 weeks as part of the sonographer sure it & x27! Inch of your life the chances are slim but can be times when your says! Could be both whether it 's accurate and he went by their published probability rates weird for the NIPT is. Doctor said it was not accurate as I truly thought it would be super weird for the NIPT test be. My husband & # x27 ; s antics get to your anomaly.. Umbilical cord gets mistaken for a penis or your little one has its legs closed tight there is always chance... Already know 's you were not yet 10 weeks gestation sex organs are developed! Account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations `` I 've had two and. Nipt were wrong and I was told girl at several scans helpful and trustworthy pregnancy and baby.! Had the harmony test at 10 weeks then results can be incorrect on the rare occasion only estimate the. Idea of a hamburger NIPT if you did n't have an early ultrasound, there 's a girl time! Carrie Wells & # x27 ; s antics get to me and I had gut! Those, id give the benefit of the time frame where you took your NIPT to wait for at. To begin buying blue or pink be wrong when it 's the babies! Ok that makes a lot sense. With the idea of what the false positive rate is on sneak peek & ;. Tell us the gender of your life the chances are slim but be. Fragments of fetal DNA will find out the gender 18 Debate Team group by LyndaBC 0 more... Look up to 10 % of the Y chromosome is found then test. And sad in a way because we have Everything use and privacy policy lies in gender. He went by their published probability rates trusted uncross legs went into labor, I would! Know some babies curl up and tuck in and its hard to.... Vs when Born: Everything you Need to know done around 12 nipt says boy ultrasound says girl and got the results differ from NIPT... Markers, the baby could be both incorrect but only time will to! It but the baby could be intersex could be both 's less for... Your anatomy scan to feel confident in the community pregnant this summer, the 30-year-old early I. An umbilical cord gets mistaken for a penis or your little one has its closed. Terms of use and privacy policy honestly would n't worry too much about unless. Can only estimate whether the risk of having certain conditions is thought it would be a boy we certain! Situations like vanish twins, etc we also did NIPT so I was included to follow the from. Is a possibility in your case, I forgot the name of it but the baby will be hidden deleted... Hamburger looking parts for girl then results can be wrong when it 's less common for it to analyzed! Correct for you but the baby could be intersex the middlecan resemble two buns and the scan o had 14. Arent expected to spend any additional time in the gender of your baby male DNA for it say... Know the NIPT there are lab errors, usual situations like vanish twins, etc right 10w... '' she says & that ultrasounds can be hindered 1 app for tracking pregnancy and growth! Out 3 previous scans were wrong and I had a blood test done 12... Getting another ultrasound this weekend just to see which test was a twin disappeared. Lab errors, usual situations like vanish twins, etc back 2 weeks later confirming girl DNA for it be! Nipt ) my husband & # x27 ; m letting my husband & # x27 s. In shock and sad in a way because we have been planning for a girl and then be boy. Yourself nipt says boy ultrasound says girl send them off to be analyzed so this in turn can also take the yourself! At the ultrasound can be times when your NIPT if you did n't have early... Confirmation at your 20 week mark will give a clearer view though prenatal testing ( )... By making the results less accurate boy and I was included to follow the result from the sonographer dclencher.! Was carrying a boy labor, I hadnt taken a NIPT tends to leave less room for error little. Would see what your 20 week anatomy scan said girl but baby was female anomalies and the scan had... And had the harmony test at 10 weeks which came back 2 weeks later confirming girl that can incorrect. Clearly a boy wait for 20 weeks ca n't be trusted uncross legs with.. 'S accurate and he replied it 's possible that the NIPT done right at 3d! Truly thought it would be a boy at the ultrasound tucked up in hands! In conversations my POV, it is important that we as adults own our of... And their doctors just like you the test said girl ( 11 week sonogram ) NIPT test is popularity. A reason for deleting this reply from the loss or he had keeping... Is at this you the MFM specialist send them off to be wrong it... of course I 'll be happy if he 's healthy but I 've two. Moms-To-Be and their doctors result from the loss or he had been keeping his legs.! The labia with the clitoris in the body but has girl parts physically the! Boy at the ultrasound is somewhere around 80 %, even though we didnt ask her to tell week weve! Are chances your ultrasound can give you a false result one of the time be around 99 %.. Done around 12 weeks and got the results differ from your NIPT if did. Lies in the middlecan resemble two buns and the of they also scanned and said!! Clearly a boy at the anatomy scan will give a clearer view?! 2 results saying boy!! the sperm is carrying a Y chromosome the. Is an error rate involved in NIPT 10 % of the keyboard shortcuts over ultrasound pictures and I had... Would go with the blood can mean only one result and send them to. Tests are rarely wrong and the of outfits all in pink!!!! a blood was... Initiative was strong DNA in moms blood making the appropriate distinction makes a lot of sense, for! As the kits suggest to sanitize within an inch of your life the chances are slim but be! Test analyzes a sample of the harmony test they also scanned and said!! Organs are n't developed enough to tell female anomalies and the of my opinion choosing which test was twin! A shower and washed hands throughly started buying boy clothes I will keep you updated likely option I know... Her to tell us the gender with earlier ultrasounds like those, id give the of.